Preventing again in opposition to anti-vax laws begins with listening

Under is a evenly edited, AI-generated transcript of the “First Opinion Podcast” interview with Sandy Tibke and Josh Gryniewicz. Make certain to join the weekly “First Opinion Podcast” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get alerts about every new episode by signing up for the “First Opinion Podcast” publication. And don’t neglect to join the First Opinion publication, delivered each Sunday.

Torie Bosch: Sandy Tibke and Josh Gryniewicz wished to spark productive dialog round vaccines in North Dakota. At a time when discussing vaccines usually means yelling, not listening, they really completed their aim by teaming up with church buildings, cowboys, chiropractors, hairdressers, and veterinarians.

Welcome to the “First Opinion Podcast.” I’m Torie Bosch, editor of First Opinion. First Opinion is STAT’s dwelling for large, daring concepts from well being care suppliers, researchers, sufferers, and others who’ve one thing to say about drugs’s most necessary and fascinating matters.

At present, I’m talking with Josh Gryniewicz and Sandy Tibke. Josh is a nationwide bestselling creator and founder and chief narrative strategist for Odd Duck. Sandy is govt director of the Basis for a Wholesome North Dakota.

After a fast break, I’ll convey you our dialog about how they teamed as much as struggle anti-vaccine payments in North Dakota and spark real dialog past.

Josh Gryniewicz and Sandy Tibke, welcome to the “First Opinion Podcast.”

Josh Gryniewicz: Thanks for having us.

Bosch: So, Sandy, I wish to begin with you. How lengthy have you ever been in North Dakota?

Sandy Tibke: I’ve been in North Dakota since 1998, however I additionally went to school for undergraduate and graduate college at College of North Dakota, so a great deal, over half of my life.

Bosch: That’s nice. And the place have been you earlier than North Dakota?

Tibke: I grew up in Hibbing, Minnesota.

Bosch: Oh, dwelling of Bob Dylan.

Tibke: Yeah. So I grew on the Iron Vary in Northern Minnesota.

Bosch: And so how lengthy have you ever been working in public well being in North Dakota particularly?

Tibke: Extra neighborhood wellness, neighborhood advocacy than public well being essentially, however I’ve been working in nonprofits since 2003, I believe, on and off.

Bosch: How would you describe the angle towards vaccines in North Dakota earlier than the Covid pandemic?

Tibke: Earlier than the pandemic, I might say that it was only a given that almost all of North Dakotans would vaccinate. And it simply was a factor that you simply did. We now have a excessive price of vaccination within the state historically with out mandates. And there’s necessities, after all, for colleges, however not mandates. And you may choose out at any time for many causes. However in our state, we’ve got the next price of vaccinations, regardless.

Bosch: And did that change with Covid?

Tibke: It did. There’s the next price of opting out for the kindergarten pictures for colleges and better charges of opting out, you already know, for in companies and all these types of issues. Yeah. There’s a decline and definitely a decline of flu vaccines.

Bosch: Josh, I wish to convey you in right here. Your organization, Odd Duck, is a storytelling for social change consultancy. What does that imply precisely?

Gryniewicz: Effectively, you and my mother ask that query on a regular basis. So, principally, we do every part by way of serving to form and share tales for affect. So that would appear like upfront of an engagement, like with North Dakota, truly internet hosting listening periods, making an attempt to reap tales that we all know would have affect, all the best way to doing, you already know, comedian ebook sequence and animations for various applications across the nation. So it sort of runs the gamut. We actually deal with what we discuss with as a story framework, which primarily is figuring out who your audiences are, what motion you need them to take, the obstacles they must taking these actions, after which serving to attraction with tales which might be curated to overcoming these obstacles and taking that motion.

Bosch: And now inform me, whoever needs to take this, when and why the 2 of you teamed up.

Tibke: I’ll begin, Josh can end. So I used to be approached to start out an immunization coalition throughout the state of North Dakota in the summertime of 2022. We didn’t have one. And historically talking, like I mentioned, we all the time had a excessive price of vaccinations throughout the state and normally teamed up with South Dakota, and it was going nicely, however what we have been seeing was that decline after which distrust of vaccines. And so we have to begin a coalition. So, I had … thought of beginning this coalition, however I noticed a broader scope.

In the course of the pandemic I used to be watching metropolis fee conferences, county fee conferences, college board conferences. And I used to be seeing lots of behaviors inside these conferences the place individuals, it was us in opposition to them, you already know, dehumanizing. Getting deeply involved concerning the cloth of communities being destroyed with this division and never having the ability to agree {that a} pen was a pen, to even have these conversations.

And so, not solely was I involved concerning the decline of vaccinations, however I used to be much more involved concerning the cloth of communities and what we’re for and never what we’re in opposition to and switching that. So I had agreed to start out a coalition, however I additionally wished so as to add in bridge builders. So we work with meals as drugs and speak about entry to nutrient-dense meals. And we additionally work with maternal well being, working with doula providers, Medicaid reimbursement, actually bringing communities collectively so we will work on what we’re for as an alternative of what we’re in opposition to. In order that’s once I obtained began in November of 2022.

Shortly thereafter, I used to be on a webinar making an attempt to place the language collectively on how will we method after we can’t even agree on a pen is a pen. And Josh was presenting at a gathering, a Northwest public well being assembly, public well being institute assembly, and was speaking about mis- and disinformation and the entire data surrounding that. And speaking about that upstream work, but additionally in a approach the place it was constructing bridges and bringing neighborhood collectively.

And that’s what I used to be on the lookout for too, however with a broader understanding on communications. And I used to be emailing Josh earlier than he was even accomplished presenting. As a result of I knew we would have liked a automobile to construct neighborhood and have a reputation for it and produce that genuine dialog on the native stage, all of the issues he was speaking about. In order that’s how we first obtained linked. After which Josh, I’ll allow you to do the second half.

Gryniewicz: Superior. So for Odd Duck, the origin was a bit completely different. Like so many within the well being communications subject, we have been kind of dragged kicking and screaming into and mis- and disinformation. We have been launching a 5 metropolis, what we thought was a typical well being communication marketing campaign proper initially of the pandemic. So simply as issues went into lockdown. And it shortly turned obvious that it was going to be derailed by disinformation. And we principally, my group and I have been like, “We now have to throw out no matter playbook we’re utilizing, the usual kind of subject playbook, and work out one thing new.” And there have been, it was very trial and error, Torie, plenty of begins and stops. Basically we boiled it all the way down to taking sort of like these 5 keys. So lengthy story quick then, we principally recognized what these 5 keys have been. We ran a yearlong marketing campaign utilizing these keys. Then we have been very lucky to pair with RISE, which is a part of the WE within the World community, who have been working with 2,500 communities throughout the nation. And we have been like, “Hey, we’ve obtained this mannequin.” They usually have been like, “Hey, we’ve this mannequin,” and we have been like, “Let’s get our fashions collectively and see what’s working and what isn’t.”

In order that was lots of knowledge for us to kind of check what we have been doing and say, “OK, that is positively working. This may want some adjustment. We like this over right here.” We revealed a misinformation information for community-based well being employees. And that’s the place Sandy and I linked as a result of she noticed me presenting on that information and people findings.

Bosch: So inform me what you have been teaming up on precisely. So that you have been working to struggle anti-vaccine payments in North Dakota. What have been these payments?

Tibke: So I’ll give an instance of one of many payments. One of many payments would have made it so we couldn’t entry mRNA expertise throughout the state for people or for animals. In order that’s certainly one of them. After which additionally taking away necessities in colleges was a number of the newest. So these are only a framework of the anti-vaccine payments.

However after we met and first began working collectively, it was work that wanted to be accomplished even earlier than that. And so, and having that framework to convey to communities as a result of the vaccines for me weren’t the main target initially. It was making an attempt to speak to rural and frontier communities and concrete communities and rebuilding belief with out pushing individuals additional into their ideology. However these are a number of the examples of the payments that got here ahead.

Bosch: So that you write in your First Opinion essay that you simply held listening periods. Inform me about them. So what number of have been there? Did you go to the identical space repeatedly? Who got here? How did you get individuals to come back?

Tibke: I’ll begin after which, Josh, add in simply on a few of these. So we had lots of conferences forward of time so far as deciding methods. And we began with key informant listening periods and talked to completely different trusted leaders throughout the state after which moved into neighborhood listening periods the place we labored alongside trusted organizations and leaders throughout the neighborhood.

We selected outdoors of public well being particularly as a result of public well being wanted help they usually wanted help they usually want another person to convey the neighborhood again collectively. And in order that’s how we obtained began. And since we’ve labored alongside trusted neighborhood organizations and leaders, we have been in a position to appeal to or retain extra individuals to attend listening periods. As well as, we all the time provided meals, and meals was tremendous, it’s tremendous necessary, and it’s a unifier and it brings the guards down.

Bosch: So what types of organizations have been you working with?

Tibke: So Ministry on the Margins is a company throughout the capital neighborhood of Bismarck, North Dakota, that works with the homeless inhabitants and unhoused and other people simply in want of providers normally. Sister Kathleen Atkinson, we labored with Sacred Pipe Useful resource Heart, which is an city Indigenous group throughout the capital Bismarck-Mandan area. We additionally labored with Standing Rock Reservation by Sacred Pipe and we labored with a religion group in Medora, North Dakota, Protected Youngsters in Grand Forks, a maternal sort of dwelling care group up in Minot, North Dakota. So these are the organizations that we labored with.

Bosch: Did you method any organizations who declined?

Tibke: No, North Dakota is an excellent state in so far as we’re rural frontier. We’re below 800,000 individuals. It’s truly one neighborhood. So everybody is aware of principally everybody and there’s no, there isn’t lots of paperwork. So if you wish to create change or do one thing to create constructive momentum, normally individuals will soar in.

Gryniewicz: And simply to zoom out for a second, Torie, like, one of many issues, you already know, as Sandy talked about, we spent most likely about three to 6 months simply sort of planning, getting the logistics in place, saying, you already know, like, who do we have to, what areas do we have to work in? What counties will we wish to deal with? And who’re the very best companions from a community-based group perspective to truly collaborate with?

So by the point we have been truly approaching and having these conversations of like, “Hey, we wish to convey a bunch of individuals collectively, and it might get heated,” proper? They have been already prepped, they have been already ready, they usually knew what they have been stepping into and wished to play a job in that. So there was lots of technique that went in on the entrance finish, simply to get like the best, the best individuals on the desk.

Bosch: So that you’ve obtained your accomplice organizations, you’ve obtained your meals, how many individuals are coming, how are they feeling? I imply, to me, it looks like in case you have this kind of factor, it’s principally going to draw perhaps individuals who already really feel strongly about vaccines a technique or one other. So have been they kind of tense? If I stroll into certainly one of these, what does it appear like? Who’s there? What are we doing?

Gryniewicz: So we primarily had most likely about two dozen, normally not more than that, though a few the periods went over. Actually of us who got here in have been strongly entrenched of their opinions, and that’s what we wished. Though the oldsters we actually wished to have the ability to affect and attain have been the oldsters within the messy center. Proper? The oldsters who’re being swayed by some means by these very dominant voices within the dialog.

So lots of that preliminary work was spent figuring out who’re our core audiences earlier than we even obtained to the purpose of figuring out these organizations to accomplice and co-host, who’re our core audiences and who will we wish to attain? And that was, you already know, educators, religion leaders, proper? As a result of lots of misinformation was being unfold, sadly, from the pulpit. And lots of that was being accomplished due to political affiliations, not due to what was in the very best curiosity of the neighborhood. Well being care suppliers, however we took a really holistic method. So we wished, once more, going again to what Sandy was saying, it is a rural state. There’s a well being care scarcity within the state, proper? And so so much instances persons are leaning on chiropractors or, you already know, holistic practitioners to be their main well being care supply and their main well being care.

And that’s unfair to either side, proper? It’s unfair to the skilled who will not be geared up or have the background and training to finest advise their shopper. And it’s unfair the people who’re coming to them, proper? And in order that’s the place you might have lots of this breakdown of oldsters polarizing. So in reply to your preliminary query, you already know, the oldsters who’re coming in, have been consultant of the neighborhood throughout the board, proper? And what we did, once more, very strategically, in our facilitation, was we requested very open-ended questions. And we didn’t lead with like, “That is why vaccines are good for you.” Proper? We requested them, “Inform us what’s going to make your neighborhood wholesome.” And by asking these open-ended questions and interesting in, you already know, facilitated dialog, we have been in a position to convey lots of the problems underlying this to the floor and successfully mitigate them.

Bosch: What did you hear on the listening periods that stunned you?

Gryniewicz: So in a single [session], I used to be kind of simply planted in the course of the room and extra attending to creating positive that we’re documenting every part and had some, we let all people know the periods have been gonna be recorded and transcribed later and so forth. And there’s a desk behind me that’s all ranchers and ranching housewives. We determined that if, if this didn’t work out, we might do, “Ranching Housewives in North Dakota” actuality TV. I might watch that. I might completely watch that.

And the factor that was vital is, you already know, they have been speaking they usually have been like, “This isn’t what I believed this was going to be in any respect.” And one of many ladies mentioned, “I had come right here to choose a struggle.” Like actually had mentioned that verbatim, however the factor is, the character of this was actually to have interaction. You inform us what, the way you outline neighborhood well being and what’s gonna make your neighborhood really feel more healthy and safer. And with that, what are you butting up in opposition to, proper? And so it’s kind of neutralized and created kind of a secure area for individuals to simply vocalize what their issues have been they usually did vocalize, proper?

I believe that was most likely one of the crucial stellar examples of issues that, you already know, we perhaps suspected, however after we truly obtained within the room, we have been like, “Oh, that’s completely validated.” And the dialog would go, you already know, in all places, however in probably the most significant approach doable.

Bosch: Sandy, what are a number of the top-level issues about vaccines you heard probably the most at these periods?

Tibke: Effectively, from what we have been listening to and what we’re nonetheless listening to is that they’re not secure, proper? And that, you already know, there’s data on the market that’s being modified by, say, pharmaceutical firms like Large Pharma, and that individuals wished that particular person selection and to determine what went into their our bodies, actually. And that’s been the shift, particularly with the Covid vaccines, however that has prolonged previous that now. That’s the primary level of it, that they don’t really feel like they’re secure anymore.

Bosch: So the listening periods have been, as you mentioned, not persuasive periods. So what got here after the listening session?

Tibke: Effectively, I’ll offer you, for the one neighborhood that we went to out in Western North Dakota. They requested us to come back again and provides a readout of that session. So we did one other neighborhood meal that they helped to host and, you already know, that first listening session, like Josh was explaining, there was different facilitators, they have been actually questioning them as a result of they weren’t from North Dakota and have been feeling like they’d an agenda, and by the tip of the night, they have been driving an hour again in from their ranches to allow them to into the Cowboy Corridor of Fame, proper? And so for me, what got here out of it …

Bosch: Wait, actually, they’d the important thing to the Cowboy Corridor of Fame?

Gryniewicz: That’s appropriate. They’ve the important thing to the Cowboy Corridor of Fame, and we obtained a non-public tour. Yep.

Tibke: As a result of it was closed throughout the winter. So, and so I believe what got here out of the listening periods is a bit little bit of belief that we went again once more, a lot in order that we have been again once more as a result of they knew we weren’t coming with an agenda and humanizing one another and seeing one another as neighborhood members and valuing one another’s opinion and perhaps subsequent steps on how we might assist that neighborhood get to what their aim was: a treadmill on the town. You recognize, to stroll on throughout the winter, proper? And so while you do this, you might have that follow-through, you construct relationships and belief, which when you might have harder conversations, you possibly can a minimum of hear one another. After which perhaps you get to the purpose the place a pen is a pen.

Bosch: What are some examples of serving to or a dialog resulting in the conclusion {that a} pen is a pen? Was there one instance of a misunderstanding that you simply thought you have been in a position to clear up nicely?

Gryniewicz: You recognize, even from the beginning, our focus was by no means explicitly simply the payments or simply to extend vaccination charges, or we wished to facilitate these conversations as Sandy mentioned, to start out fostering, you already know, a few of that therapeutic, bringing individuals collectively and beginning to rebuild some belief, proper? And so we’ve got definitely seen examples come out of that, of rebuilding the belief. However, you already know, in our piece we shared, you already know, lots of the stuff that occurred have been amplified or, you already know, sort of ripple results out of those listening periods. So we heard from residents who would speak about, you already know, like, “Oh, I used to be hesitant [to get my child vaccinated] due to issues about autism, for instance. However I had a dialog at church with any individual within the greeting line afterwards, who was a nurse. And since I had this connection to her now, I used to be extra receptive and understood higher.” So like, that was the dispelling of, of mis- and disinformation, proper? As a result of it was constructed on this basis of belief.

Bosch: Proper, so the very same dialog you suppose would have gone in a different way had they not established belief within the listening periods.

Gryniewicz: I don’t know that the dialog would have occurred in any respect. As a result of, you already know, a lot of this was so entrenched after we have been doing what Sandy had talked about earlier, a part of our preliminary work was doing these, you already know, key informant interviews. So Sandy and I road-tripped across the state. You recognize, she has a a lot stronger bladder than I so, you already know, she, we’d have lined much more floor if it weren’t for my espresso behavior. We met with two dozen, you already know, of us who have been consultant of those key audiences, proper? Together with, a Republican chief who sat down with us, you already know, was very welcoming however advised us fairly frankly and bluntly — that is, once more, at first earlier than anything, after we introduced up the subject of vaccines and we have been having this dialog with him, he bristled. His shoulders went up, he went ghost white, and he simply kind of shivered. And he mentioned, “Look, I can’t even have interaction in that dialog. Even when me and my household have been vaccinated, I couldn’t speak about it, proper?” In order that’s what we have been up in opposition to, proper? So going again to that dialog within the church, it simply wouldn’t have occurred. Folks have been kind of on this like, we’re gonna shut down these conversations or we’re coming to choose a struggle or what have you ever as a result of issues had gotten so entrenched and so politicized and polarized that there was no groundwork for that.

Bosch: So after these listening periods, after going again and having extra listening periods, what have been the following steps?

Tibke: So from a programmatic standpoint, we moved into partnering with Shackle Free, which was began in North Carolina. And what they do is that they work with barbers and hairstylists all through the state and practice them on modules. In order that they nearly turn out to be neighborhood well being employees as a result of they’re a trusted supply. You see them recurrently, oftentimes greater than your physician. And so we began placing that program collectively. And that was, for me, the following step on making an attempt to embed trusted neighborhood members throughout the state the place individuals might simply have conversations and that they may get fact-based data after which make their very own decisions for themselves and their households. Then the funds cuts got here in final March and that program has to cease for proper now till we discover extra funding. However for me, from a sensible standpoint, that’s the following step. After which additionally, we’ve created deeper partnerships with, say, Sacred Pipe Useful resource Heart inside Bismarck and making an attempt to plan out completely different neighborhood meals we will must proceed these discussions.

Gryniewicz: And there have been two major targets, Torie, to the listening periods themselves. The primary was to determine frequent floor, to convey all these individuals collectively, and to have conversations the place we might agree a pen is a pen, proper? And facilitate that.

The second was that we truly have been harvesting, you already know, concepts of what was going to make the neighborhood more healthy, and what was going to, you already know, have the ability to be applied. So you already know, Sandy simply talked about the Shackle Free group that the entire concept of like, creating sort of like a neighborhood well being employee per skilled workforce within the state. Once more, going again to a number of the points that we recognized, you might have a rural neighborhood the place persons are leaning on professionals who could not have or be finest versed in, you already know, articulating what the issue is, or what the options are. They usually’re being checked out as just like the supply of all data, proper, so having a neighborhood well being employee method helps amplify that. However we recognized a number of kind of like suggestions out of all of the listening periods, the interviews, every part else. The primary was neighborhood activations about well being and wellness, so by no means explicitly main with like, “Hey, we’re going to have a vaccination occasion,” however all the time making an attempt to fold it into one thing else that was occurring, having a bouncy fort and a barbecue, after which, you already know, then the truck can roll up, The second was establishing community-based partnerships, which we started to do with these listening periods, however these have been very deep engagements. Sandy and her group have been working with a few of these organizations on an ongoing foundation all through. And having the ability to leverage a few of these relationships to amplify the attain of those, this neighborhood well being employee community, creating value-neutral and nonjudgmental areas and language — communications that lead with curiosity.

So all of our items, whether or not they’re listening periods or a marketing campaign as an entire, making an attempt to facilitate these conversations. Normalizing vaccines by folding them into different neighborhood occasions, after which utilizing, you already know, the strategic storytelling piece to kind of push out a few of this messaging, whether or not it’s the video sequence, the sheer quantity of unbelievable webinars that Sandy and her group have curated, you already know, coaching neighborhood leaders and public well being professionals on shaping and sharing tales, all of these items.

Bosch: And so there’s kind of two completely different tracks going right here, proper? So there’s the large image, long-term, how will we develop these relationships? How will we begin working with the neighborhood to sort of outline a pen as a pen for everyone? After which there was the kind of short-term combating these payments. And I wanna deal with the payments only for one other couple of minutes, since I believe that’s so related to what we’re seeing in plenty of different states and federally proper now.

So inform me a bit about what occurred. How did these listening periods find yourself affecting or not affecting the payments that had been proposed within the North Dakota statehouse or within the North Dakota legislature, with no matter it’s referred to as there?

Tibke: The legislature. Effectively, you’re simply constructing a relationship so you may make some cellphone calls to both acquire perspective of a area to speak to a legislator or so in my case ensuring that you simply’re connecting with the state veterinarians affiliation, the stockman’s affiliation, after which after all physicians, hospital methods, and all of the skilled organizations connected to well being care throughout the state. But in addition, you already know, certainly one of my board members and now our board president is a pediatrician and an integrative drugs specialist. So ensuring that individuals see that we imagine in integrative drugs as a company so chiropractors really feel secure to speak about their perspective and I can speak about ours.

However the affect actually from listening periods was having the ability to convey a gaggle of individuals collectively after which have completely different individuals testify. I by no means requested for physicians or public well being employees to testify as a result of what I used to be seeing within the 2023 and 2025 periods was that legislators, particularly in human providers on the Home facet and in Senate, not all, however the majority, didn’t take to coronary heart the doctor’s perspective, that they felt like they have been coming from an agenda. And that they have been listening to out-of-state organizations and in residents, which is sweet that they’re listening to residents. However what got here from these listening periods having the ability to pull within the folks that had a bit extra affect, which might be the stockman’s affiliation, the veterinarians affiliation, and completely different teams that had heavier foyer that hadn’t cut up but from the legislators so far as belief goes.

In order that was a great end result from the listening periods. After which creating belief with teams that didn’t agree with us so you would a minimum of have conversations and conform to disagree, however there wasn’t such venom or such othering and dehumanizing discussions that have been occurring, which is what I used to be making an attempt to flip the narrative to what we’re for, not what we’re in opposition to each time again and again and once more, so we will begin disciplining ourselves that approach.

Bosch: And so finally you have been profitable, proper? None of those payments that you simply have been significantly involved about in, was it 2023, ended up passing?

Tibke: Yeah. Yep. Proper. We have been profitable by and enormous. I believe that it’s going to take many periods to get again to the purpose. Every session will probably be a problem. Ours is each different 12 months. And proper now we’re beginning our Grandparents for Vaccines chapter throughout the state of North Dakota. There’s been lots of curiosity from our older inhabitants. They imagine in vaccines. They have been round when polio was round. … Till you see it, you’re not understanding the affect as a lot. So we’re going to must preserve working very arduous and preserve bringing collectively, you already know, the influential individuals into the session. …

Bosch: So then I suppose you would say that the consequence is not only defeating the payments in 2023, however making ready to struggle them once more in 2025, 2027.

Tibke: Precisely. I foresee this to be a decade lengthy earlier than it begins to relax. I’ve had lots of expertise with neighborhood change and alter administration round tense conditions. And it does take time to convey that belief again and constant work and work you could’t quantify, assembly in individual over a barbecue. You recognize, it doesn’t promote to, to a philanthropist essentially, however the tradition begins to shift over time. After which that’s what advantages a neighborhood.

Gryniewicz: A variety of that is contingent on these cultural levers, which isn’t one thing that public well being is — that’s not the default, proper? So public well being historically doesn’t go to cultural levers except it’s doing a PSA with a celeb spot, proper? And I believe a part of what this general technique is when doing sort of that narrative framework and the listening periods and all of that is let’s truly deal with these cultural levers.

Bosch: I believe that’s a reasonably excellent place to wrap up. I do have one remaining query. Do you might have any occasions deliberate with the Cowboy Corridor of Fame?

Tibke: We should always as a result of it was really superb and it was the very best of what I find out about, I’m positive anyone in any a part of this nation, when you’re face-to-face and you’ve got a meal collectively and go to and humanize one another the place you’ll exit of your option to do one thing, proper? And a neighbor serving to a neighbor. So it was pretty to see on the time.

Gryniewicz: They usually gave me a family and friends low cost on the reward store. I obtained a kickin’ denim hat with a lasso and a rodeo theme, and it was 10% off. …

Tibke: Effectively, and we went ax throwing with the nun.

Bosch: Wow, we got here to that approach too late.

Gryniewicz: Yeah, no, that had by no means been on my bucket listing till it occurred. And I used to be like, oh, this actually ought to have been like, you already know, ax throwing with a nun. I believe I used to be sporting a Slayer shirt as nicely, so it’s actually, it’s simply bringing individuals collectively.

Bosch: Yeah, you talked concerning the, the ranch wives of North Dakota. I believe the fact present actually must be simply following you guys and your group round North Dakota, I might watch the crap out of that.

Josh Gryniewicz and Sandy Tibke, thanks a lot for approaching the First Opinion Podcast.

Gryniewicz: Thanks for having us.